Colored borders and the old content back!! Thank you! :) —R.H. 4/30/02 Reply
I just want to say that yesterday I got back from a week long trip to DC and it is so cool to see all of this new content on wiki. —dYsk Reply
'I like most of it, but I admit that I am disconcerted by all these new pages that are being created instead of old pages being put up again. I guess I'm not patient enough, but I really wish that the old content would just be put up again — on the new pages, even — because anything I've said looks like it's been completely erased (even though I know it hasn't... it's just stored away in some box in Washington) In one way I know it's good to let go, on the other hand it feels like my online existance was just wiped away... —Eireann Reply
I honestly amn't sure how to feel at the moment. All the wiki change has been weird for me, because all the anger gets put at me.
~Arianna Reply
I'm sorry, to me this sounds like you (Arianna) were somewhat supprised that people were angry over the loss of all their wiki content. I'm sure this isn't what you mean't, but what exactly did you mean by this? Reply
I mean I'm not sure how I feel. Or felt, considering that that was a dated post. Reply
Next thing, whats the hold up on posting the old wiki content? Or better yet, why didn't you post the old data somewhere when you implemented the new page? There are a few older pages I would like to look over, I know I don't look over wiki much, but if this is my last chance to review some of the old data I would like to do so. Thanks. Reply
—pellik Reply
The holdup is laze, encouragement to not cut and paste pages into this wiki, it's time to refactor into a more useful format like HTML. —Ari Reply
allis a bit unrealistic) the old Wiki were to reappear somewhere, because I enjoyed browsing it and there were all sorts of pages I liked to look at and check in on every so often, or was planning to write on, etc., etc. etc. Not that Wiki wasn't graciously provided for all of us and everything, but I had come to count on it
being there(in mostly the same form each time I arrived) even without knowing who and what (completely) provided it. I think for many of us this is somewhat of a life-line and so to arrive here a few days ago and find it blank and new was somewhat of a shock. I can understand the appeal of a new start but I do think there were perfectly up-to-date and interesting conversations going on that I'd still be interested in seeing again; it's not like it WAS neccesarily ALL old. I've heard both sides—that the old Wiki will be
put back upbut also that it won't. What IS the plan about that? Someone suggested that the old Wiki could've stayed on the server separately, but I understand that was part of the whole problem, yes? That the server was too full? I can see both sides of the debate on this and while I am extremely appreciative of this medium being provided for us, I can see the merit of people wanting full access to the old material. (Although, I can also see that a lot of the old Wiki perhaps may have needed to be weeded out. The trouble is that everyone probably has different ideas of what needed to be weeded (if at all). ) —R.H. 4/11/02
I have an opinion that I feel sums up the main distress of the wiki community. It is a worthy note that the few who keep Wiki working should receive credit. Surely, a great deal. As an assistant webmaster for an online Highschool community several years ago, I understand some of the efforts that go into keeping a workable online community afloat. HOWEVER——-another thing I am to also recognize is the fact that if you go and change something without at least making it possible for most of the people in the community to easily vote on or acknowledge the change, you're going to get flamed until you wish you hadn't even bothered. This flaming isn't a result of disappreciation. It's a result of just being pissed by communal discontinuity at the hand of one or two people. Reply
REMEMBER: being a programmer is often a thankless job: If something works well, people show appreciation by using it. It's difficult to see the person behind the code, to tell the truth. People usually only notice if something that worked YESTERDAY suddenly works like crap, or what-have-you. This does not mean the programmer should just stop and not bother. Their work is indeed as equally important as the things that go on within the domain of their coded world. However, back to a the topic of the New Wiki... Reply
Take the following analogy of wiki distress, which I feel isn't out of place: Let's say wiki is actually a big beautiful building used for years for the purpose of community talks in big pillow laden circles with bulletin boards on the walls and tables scattered with drawings, poetry and paintings. People danced through the halls and the memories still echo throughout. For the sake of analogy, say this isn't too far out of place. Wiki (in combination with IRC) is the next best thing for this purpose if everyone can't be together all the time. Now... continuing: Let's say this building only has a few people who keep it maintained and in orderly condition, let's say, the geeks
. They sweep the floors and tighten down the battens, so to speak. Then a couple of them, the ones that devoted themselves the hardest to the task, decide that the whole building is too old and cumbersome to make much good any longer. So they take a bulldozer and knock it down and rebuild it with the same materials. The place is brand spanking new now with shiny floors and sparkling hallways. But the community walks up and says Oh my GOD! WHERE the HELL is our Wiki House?
and the caretakers say, Well, since we take care of it so much, out of the goodness of our hearts, you should be happy that we made this place anew.
The building is there, but none of the memories. This is something where, if you want to avoid conflict, you MUST, MUST, MUST petition the community first before you take out the dozer. Even if you still make the old woods available and the old drawings organized in boxes in the basement. I think most of us can readily agree that there is untold levels of appreciation for those that care for wiki. But those that care for wiki must ALSO care for those that pace the halls, not just the halls themselves. Reply
Thank you. Reply
-Luke Reply
Great story, only thing I would sugguest is perhaps noting that those geeks built(Ari, although he got the foundation for free on the internet), own(Platty), and pay property taxes(Platty again) on the building. So while the community uses the building, they don't pay for it or have any rights in the matter. If the users started sending in money to support the buildings upkeep costs, then perhaps this kind of thing wouldnt have happened. -pellik Reply
this is THE LEAST user friendly page I have EVER EVER used. ARG! ~Malia Reply
This page, or the new Wiki? Reply
this feels like such a downgrade. ahhh. sorry, just can't STAND it. - emilyoh Reply
Why not? Reply
Ok, this is where I needlessly insert my openion, even though nobody cares because I don't really participate in the wiki community... While Ari is right that this is his project, and he can damn well do with it what he pleases. He seems to have missed the fact that his project was not to 'make a wiki page' but rather 'to make a better medium for the camp community'. So while its true that he can implement changes as much as he pleases, it was counterproductive for him to implement them without consulting with that community first. Once a product has gone 'live', changes to it are supposed to better the product, which in this case means increase the size of the community (because like most communitys, they only thrive when they have many members, and will start the process of a long and painful death if the member base starts to decrease). So while I do like the changes Ari has gone and made, I don't consider this an 'upgrade' so much as a 'downgrade', because the community is weaker and somewhat less interested then before. Next time you go and upgrade/patch/redo a service on a live server Ari, make sure you think through all the variables, not just those which you are currently interested in. Reply
—pellik Reply
I did think through 'em all. It was a concious decision, and frankly, there's been triple the prosaic posting that there was two weeks ago. . . . smaller community? Hardly. Reply
So send Pellik money, and maybe he'll start being useful. You never know. — Charlie Reply
I, for the most part am pleased with the new layout, although it's not yet fully debugged and doesn't render with Netscape I think I'll start a BugReports page where any flaws in the programming can be pointed out. Reply
What's the problem with netscape? It renders for me, in version 4 and 6. Reply
i just can't... i don't get that warm and fuzzy feeling that i got from old wiki with this one. too DRAB. need color. unschooler mismatched colorfulness - emilyoh Reply
I posted this on CheckIn but I think it's actually a little more relevent here. I find it incredibly electrifying how much people care about wiki and the community around it. I mean Emily Oh cares enough to say what she is saying and Ari obviously cares a lot, and everyone in detween cares beeply about this. I personally feel that this is a good change but I also understand that it's not a view shared by everyone. Reply
Two requests please: Reply
—dYsk Reply
I merely wish to point out that NBTSC saloon fight
is a great phrase. Reply
— The Dread Troll Roberts. Reply
Okay, am I the only one pissed off about this? As a community, shouldn't we have a say in what happens to our community? What gives Ari the right to decide for all of us what should happen? Hello? Democracy? Anyone? Reply
well, i just spent three minutes slamming the mouse on the desk & glaring & growling at the screen, so i guess you could say i'm less than happy. Reply
what the hell? isn't this supposed to be a ~community~ board, a place that we all affect instead of one person saying, hey, i'm bored, let's change this whole thing without letting anyone else know beforehand? Reply
i mean, i'm not neccessarily saying you bastard! you suck dirt!
but i am saying that we should all be able to have a say on completely revamping this, pretty much, ~our~ place. or is this suddenly not ~our's~, but ari's? Reply
—kat Reply
all the content of the of the old wiki has been backed up, three times over, it will be accessable again (all of it) just not instantaniously. no content has been lost, it's just not available for a bit while wiki gets upgraded. and it is an upgrade, fresh start for content
retoric aside, wiki has been eating up the capasity of the server, and it's been a slow ol' bitch to load — all the geeks seem to agree that even when this wiki gets just as much content as the old one, it'll still be way faster to load, and not take as much processor power etc, leaving the server running much smoother. Also, this version of wiki will keep a record of every single edit of every single page individually. This means angry campers can't delete anything perminantly, it means asshole passers-by can't delete anything for sport, and it means if you post, and then someone else posts on the same page, having started before you did, there will be a copy of your post, it will not be writen over. I was even talking to ari about having some automatic system to have it point it out when that happens, so someone will notice and fix it so both posts are in the up to date copy of the page, and he said that sounded good and doable. The new software for this new wiki is specifically designed to make sure you can't loose anything, unless the server up and dies, which it could, so making your own back ups is still a good idea. —Zack Reply
Thanks for saying that, Z. One thing I'd like to point out is that much
of what I've done was asked for, by many people. Solving some of those
things meant a clean slate, some didn't. Some people asked for a clean
slate,
and I'm the one who'll step up and take the fall to get it done.
I'm not sure what to say about democracy. I've watcheddemocracytear online communities apart more often than I have seem them help it. I asked around a bit, several people who were on IRC at the time, and a few people who I put special value in their opinion, and most of them said "Go for it, just don't implicate me." So I won't, but there were a lot more people asked than you might expect.
As far as ownership, Wiki has always been a bit anarchistic. The rules were unagreed on, and that's part of why it was successful. One can do anything one wants with relative ease, and that's a double-edged sword. I'm supporting that freedom with this engine, which is much better written, so not only is it faster, but it gives a bit more freedom since
Actually no, it's not yours. Ari, Platty and the other geeks have provided, maintained and updated wiki and irc for campers for years. It is a service. I have never seen anyone praising them or thanking them for their efforts. I have, however, seen people complaining and insulting them when things go wrong. They do this in their free time, and I have seen them put the rest of their lives on hold merely to fix something when it goes wrong. Reply
Ari did, in fact let people know he was writing new code, I've known for months now. The old wiki still exists, it is not like someone went and purposefully deleted it. Any time you feel like programing a new wiki feel free. No one is stoping you from doing it... but please don't complain when the people that have selflessly and thanklessly given you this resource try and improve it for your benefit. Also... don't FREAK OUT... if people don't like the changes I'm sure Ari will be willing to switch it back. Nothing important has been lost because you were not able to write on the old wiki tonight; I suggest that you try writing here, you might even like it. Reply
When has anyone ever stoped and said Ari, Platty, without you two we would not be the community we are today. And I am grateful for how you've helped me stay in touch with all the people I care about.
People take them for granted, and it pisses me off to see them mistreated the way you people mistreat them. Reply
put it back just how it was, he's said as much on irc tonight, but that's because it's new software, and the server needs it to run properly, but all the old content will be back, in viewable only form. This wiki is not actually all that different. We can do exactly the same stuff with it if we want, and if for some reason we want the entire however many archives of Dont Quote That saved in editable form, someone can copy the whole damn thing back into here. I for one don't see the point, but if you want to, go for it, you just have to wait a few weeks. If you need some poetry to didn't save anywhere else, and you need it now, e-mail ari. In the mean time, make a new version of BitchBox and rant about the evils of the guy who just wrote an entirely new code so we could read wiki with less lag time and much less risk of loosing any content. ~z~
I don't mind the new wiki that much. It works and it loads a lot faster then the old one. My problems are two. 1: All the old stuff is gone. Sure Ari has it somewhere, but it's gonna be a pain to put the old content on the new wiki. If there was someone to link to old wiki pages or take the content and put it here. I don't know how easy that would be. And 2: We didn't and don't (it seems) have a choce. It just happened. If we had talked about it before hand, all would be fine. But we didn't. The new wiki just was sudenly here. Like Robyn and Kat said, we should have a say on what happend to our community. —Victor Reply
On a diffrent note, does that camp picture really need to on every page? It takes up space and makes it that much longer to load. —Victor (again) Reply
That's one of the nice things. The old stuff won't be transfered to the new wiki. The old one, and everything on and about it, has been retired. This is our new playground. A new coloring book, as I see it. And while I don't seem to be in the majority here, being someone who's happy about the change, but this isn't ours. Wiki, the server, everything. It's something that we can use. We did not make it possible, we don't fix it when it's broken, we don't program everything and buy a server so we can have IRC, a listserv and wiki. We didn't always have our own server. This was back in the dark ages, before I even got a computer. Ask one of the old timers floating around here. Go read the old messageboards from way back in the beginning. IRC used to be on Dalnet, not paradoxical. The server belongs to Ari and Platty. They're sharing it with us. They are not paid in anything besides watching the community grow and blossom. They aren't our staff, to be ignored when things are running smoothly, bitched at when something changes or doesn't work, and briefly praised when they fix something the way we like it. ~/Qete/~ Reply
And everybit of that old, cluttered wiki will be accessible again. The discussions and arguments that are on going can be transfered over here just easy as making a new page. The ones that have died out will still be there to read, and should someone decide to bring one back, they can. - Nick H Reply
I just spent the last day or so pondering the new wiki. I've decided that I'm mostly fine with it. But other people arn't. Lots of people were using wiki to store writings and such. It's like a geek storing all there programs, code and other work on someone elses computer and having that person reformat the computer without asking said geek. As of right now, all there writing and work is gone. I don't have a problem with the new wiki. The problem is that all the old wiki is gone. I know the old stuff will be accesible soon. And the sooner the better. But it's still going to be somewhat out of the way, I'm guessing. I think what we really need is any easy way to copy old wiki pages into the new wiki. I have no idea if that could be done. But if it could, that would rock. Reply
The other problem that people have is that the change just sort of happened. We didn't really get a chance to talk about it or anything. But it is the geeks wiki, not everyones. If they do 100% of the work, why shouldn't they get 100% control? And yes, I know. I'm condradicting stuff I said up above. Sorry about that, but I changed my mind about a few things. -Victor Reply
Sure, they fix things when we need them to, and we love them for it, but who does the posting? Everyone, not just the geeks. They don't give it the kind of life that everyone else does... They do post cool things once in a while, but just because they fix it doesn't mean it BELONGS to them!! That's like saying... Your stuff belongs to the government. Just because they run the country doesn't mean all of your stuff belongs to them. Just like all the stuff on wiki does NOT belong to the geeks. and that being said, since the people are what make wiki wiki, we should get to have as much of a say about what happens to it as the geeks do. (I'm sorry, I'm pissed, so if that didn't make sense... well it did to me so whatever) Reply
—jessica Reply
This morning I woke up and came groggily on the computer to see what went on last night while I was sleeping. So I opened up wiki, and wow. Blinkblinkblink, I sat there for a few minutes going waaaaaaaaaa? Then I clicked around on the pages and zipzipzoweee, there's a new wiki...and it loads fast and it's nice looking and there aren't any spamy little message boards at the end of the pages and there's no wierd random computer users posting annyoying things, no zillions of archives that no one is ever going to read and you know what? I like it, and I think Ari deserves a lot of peanutbutter cookies. I mean a lot. Reply
I can see where all of you are coming from, feeling like I did at first, as if you are running around naked without your layers of posts and discussions and memories padding wiki. I'm willing to start again, to get used a new clean wiki. It feels kind of sterile right now but after we get at it and start filling it up with poetry and discussions, it'll start to feel like a new home. So don't go crawling into holes, refusing to post and muttering evil thoughts about Ari. Try out the new wiki, make some posts and wait a few days before you make any more judgements about it. You might even end up wanting to send him some peanutbutter cookies. Reply
I for one think this is awesome. Thank you, so much, to all that contributed to this change— especially Ari! Reply
Wiki is kind of like a journal, a big beautiful sometimes messy and cluttery collage, but nonetheless full of important things. But what happens when you fill up your favorite notebook? You start a new one. I don't see what's so wrong with that. Reply
Mari Reply
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I feel the need to take sides on this, because it's very important to me. So I am all for the new wiki. I may write something else when I'm a bit less angry about how hurtful people are being. —Marina Reply
Huh. I'm not entirely sure yet what I think of all this. I, too, freaked out initially at the dissapearance of nice good ol' wiki. But I understand the reasons behind wanting to start anew. I don't think that a fresh start has to mean discarding the past, though. Reply
Isn't this situation similar to when wiki first came to our community and the old message board was discarded? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the message board still there? Why can't the same thing happen with old wiki? Even if it's not editable, just leave it online as a reference. There was a lot of worthwhile stuff in it and I'd hate to see it get dusty. Reply
Is there an issue of limited storage space on the server? That's the only reason I can think of for not keeping old wiki available. Reply
The last thing I'd like to add is that this discussion really shouldn't become The People vs. Ari.
Both/all sides of the issue are valid, and even if people feel strongly about things (which is I think is great), those points shouldn't be and shouldn't be interpreted as attacks on Ari. At the same time, it'd be really nice if Ari would keep us all informed on what's happening and the reasoning behind the wiki-switch. Reply
love to all, Emerie Reply
I think it's more an issue of the coding that is required to link the new wiki and the old wiki not being finished. Reply
There are many good things about the new wiki, as people have pointed out. A warning posted a week or so beforehand have been nice, yes, but oh well — this serves as a nice reminder to us that relying on one singular internet site (as opposed to saving things on your computer or in your desk) to store your creative endeavors can be a very bad idea. The old content's not lost, just temporarily inaccessible, so this is very far from a worst-case scenario. Reply
Democracy rarely works online. For a democracy to work, everyone has to have an informed opinion, and that's just not possible here, with so many people who are unable to write code and/or run nbtsc.org. I argue that in the case of wiki, not only would a democracy not work, it would actually be unfair. Certain people (you and we know who you are) know and put into this much more than others, and to allow anyone and everyone to waltz in and have an equal say in things would not be helpful. It would have been silly in this case. In conclusion, as long as we are not contributing our money, time, or expertise to the running of wiki, how can we reserve the right to tell the people who do own and work on the site how to administer it? Reply
is there any reason this new wiki has to be so...drab. one of the cool things about old wiki was the colorfulness. but this new wiki is plain drab silver with no color and no touch of...us. and that STUPID picture in the corner on every page is really getting on my nerves. -emilyoh Reply
Although I'm not entirely happy with the circumstances of the change, I think it'll end up being healthy. We'll all be glad it happened in a year. The test will be whether we're still giving WellDeservedRecognition. — Charlie Reply
This came as a real suprise to me when i came back on for the first time in a week or so. Nothing worked. and I didn't know that wiki had changed until i started reading pages. This new wiki may be better, I have no doubts about that, but i would really have appreciated it if someone would have let us know about this. Just a warning so we all could have gotten used to the idea unstead of all of a sudden, bam! gone. There are some things on the old wiki that i would like to have copies of. so please post those as soon as possible. i'm not blaming anyone, but if this ever has to happen again, it could be a lot nicer for everyone. Reply
~erynne oh and the colours aren't near as cool Reply
I'm hesitant to say anything here at the risk of hurting feelings, so let me say before I start that it's not my intent to slam
people. Reply
I don't really like the new format, but maybe that's just because it's new and I'm not used to it yet, so I'll see how I feel in a week. I think that... I don't know what I think. I'm frustrated that everything I've written on here is no longer accessable to me, personally, and I'm frustrated that we didn't have any warning about this. Maybe next time you want to clear everything off of here, warn us so that we can save and archive things that we want to save for ourselves? Reply
But not wanting to sound like an ungrateful bitch, I appreciate everything that the *icks have done for the online community, even if it's not all initially appreciated. —Fiona Reply
I think doing an overhaul of wiki was good in some ways, but it literally looks like it's been dipped in bleach. And I think such pages like the AllSoRad pages and the SingFor pages (and even perhaps Le Text Adventure) should have been kept up. Oh, and is there any chance you could put a link to the RecentChanges page at the bottom alongside the edit page and such? —Rachael Reply
The problem with keeping any page is that those are your favorites, and if I had my pick, I'd pick a different set, and another person another. The poets would keep the poetry, the writers the writings. The people who like to converse would keep the debates, and the IRC'ers would want the IRC Don't Quote That preserved. Who decides? Well, I'd let the community decide, and instead of a majority-oppresses-all decision, why not wipe a bit and let it rebuild how it suits the community best? —Arianna Reply
Yeah, i was just wondering what happen with all the nice little informative oriental symbols? Reply
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